Post by Dibígo LeMuze on Oct 10, 2007 11:10:01 GMT -5
Paul is silly. Why use email when we have forums for this? I pasted text verbatim, though I added B/F/R/W to the table.
Greg responded:
My first inclination is that this is too powerful. Most importantly, it beats the pants off any comparable Assassin. The class is too similar to a duelist/shadowdancer.
I agree with Greg. Full BAB progression never comes with (improved) uncanny dodge, and rarely comes with two good saves (and it appears that fortitude doesn't make any sense for the character anyway). It would give Hide in Plain Sight to a 7th level character, which is sooner than any other build allows (Shadowdancer gets it at 8th character level at the earliest, and I agree with Greg that it should not compete with Shadowdancer's speed in getting that ability.) The skill point requirements need to be higher; if it requires BAB +6, at least one of the required skills should be at 9 ranks.
I would actually construct an anti-assassin class much differently, looking to create a clear opposite. This means no stealth. The class would focus very heavily on spot, listen, and sense motive, and would have the option of a sense motive check in place of any save triggered by a sneak attack. Instead of immunity to poison, it would gain the same level of resistance as the Assassin class does. It would otherwise be quite similar:
Wary Warrior
Requirements:
Skills: Spot 8 ranks, Listen 3 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks
Feats: Weapon Focus (piercing weapon), alertness, negotiator
Sense Deadly Critical (ex): A Wary Warrior may choose to make a sense motive check in place of any save triggered by a critical hit (the effect causing the save must require a critical hit).
Uncanny Alertness (ex): A Wary Warrior of third level or higher makes listen checks without penalties while sleeping. Once every three levels, a Wary Warrior gains an additional +1 competence bonus to all spot and listen checks.
Spells: As Assassin, spell list will either be from the Assassin or the Paladin (TBD).
Here is the begining of a prestige class which Will and I were designing. I was wondering what your opinions were, balance wise and flavorwise.
The concept is a defense against assassins which tays hidden in the shadows and will be able to defeat any assassin through supperior martial prowess. It leans heavily more on direct conflict where an assassin needs supprise, or poison of some sort.
Prereq: BAB +6
Hide 5 ranks
Move Sil 5 ranks
Spot 5 ranks
listen 5 ranks
Weapon finesse, weapon focus (piercing weapon), alertness, stealthy
Full BAB d10 hit die 4 skillpoints per level and good for/reflex saves
Discussing with Jon, we decided hide in plain sight is a very powerful ability,
especially to get at the first level, but is not unprecedented (Shadowdancer).
Also, the prestige class has very steep prereqs as it has both alertness and
stealthy which are typically throwaway feats. I was also debating dropping the
uncanny alertness abilities as they are mostly there so it gets something at
each level. The other possible addition would be fast sneak at 5 and 10. The
lesser version to half penalties of sneaking faster then normal, and the second
to negate them.
thanks in advance for your opinions
-Paul
The concept is a defense against assassins which tays hidden in the shadows and will be able to defeat any assassin through supperior martial prowess. It leans heavily more on direct conflict where an assassin needs supprise, or poison of some sort.
Prereq: BAB +6
Hide 5 ranks
Move Sil 5 ranks
Spot 5 ranks
listen 5 ranks
Weapon finesse, weapon focus (piercing weapon), alertness, stealthy
Full BAB d10 hit die 4 skillpoints per level and good for/reflex saves
Lvl BAB Frt Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Hide in plain sight
2 +2 +3 +3 +0 Uncanny Dodge
3 +3 +3 +3 +1 Uncanny Alertness +1
4 +4 +4 +4 +1 Immune to death attack
5 +5 +4 +4 +1 Precise Strike 1d6
6 +6 +5 +5 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Uncanny Alertness +2
7 +7 +5 +5 +2 Uncanny Initiative +4
8 +8 +6 +6 +2 Immune to poison
9 +9 +6 +6 +3 Uncanny Alertness +3
10 +10 +7 +7 +3 Precise Strike 2d6
Discussing with Jon, we decided hide in plain sight is a very powerful ability,
especially to get at the first level, but is not unprecedented (Shadowdancer).
Also, the prestige class has very steep prereqs as it has both alertness and
stealthy which are typically throwaway feats. I was also debating dropping the
uncanny alertness abilities as they are mostly there so it gets something at
each level. The other possible addition would be fast sneak at 5 and 10. The
lesser version to half penalties of sneaking faster then normal, and the second
to negate them.
thanks in advance for your opinions
-Paul
Greg responded:
While alertness and stealthy are typically throwaway feats, they are among the best of them. The skill rank pre-reqs are also no-brainers for anybody who has them as class skills. This is pretty clearly a ranger PRC.
Assuming Uncanny Alertness is just a bonus to spot/listen or something...
Then the only silly thing about this PRC is HiPS at level 1. It should fall in levels 5-10. No PRC other than Shadowdancer gives HiPS at 1, and Shadowdancer has obnoxious Pre-Reqs -and- sucks except for HiPS. You don't want to give a level 7 character with full BAB HiPS.
-Greg
Assuming Uncanny Alertness is just a bonus to spot/listen or something...
Then the only silly thing about this PRC is HiPS at level 1. It should fall in levels 5-10. No PRC other than Shadowdancer gives HiPS at 1, and Shadowdancer has obnoxious Pre-Reqs -and- sucks except for HiPS. You don't want to give a level 7 character with full BAB HiPS.
-Greg
My first inclination is that this is too powerful. Most importantly, it beats the pants off any comparable Assassin. The class is too similar to a duelist/shadowdancer.
I agree with Greg. Full BAB progression never comes with (improved) uncanny dodge, and rarely comes with two good saves (and it appears that fortitude doesn't make any sense for the character anyway). It would give Hide in Plain Sight to a 7th level character, which is sooner than any other build allows (Shadowdancer gets it at 8th character level at the earliest, and I agree with Greg that it should not compete with Shadowdancer's speed in getting that ability.) The skill point requirements need to be higher; if it requires BAB +6, at least one of the required skills should be at 9 ranks.
I would actually construct an anti-assassin class much differently, looking to create a clear opposite. This means no stealth. The class would focus very heavily on spot, listen, and sense motive, and would have the option of a sense motive check in place of any save triggered by a sneak attack. Instead of immunity to poison, it would gain the same level of resistance as the Assassin class does. It would otherwise be quite similar:
Wary Warrior
Requirements:
Skills: Spot 8 ranks, Listen 3 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks
Feats: Weapon Focus (piercing weapon), alertness, negotiator
Spells/Day
Lvl BAB Frt Ref Will Special 1 2 3 4
1 +0 +0 +2 +2 Sense Deadly Critical 0 - - -
2 +1 +0 +3 +3 +1 save against poison, Uncanny Dodge 1 - - -
3 +2 +1 +3 +3 Uncanny Alertness +1 2 0 - -
4 +3 +1 +4 +4 +2 save against poison 3 1 - -
5 +3 +1 +4 +4 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Precise Strike 1d6 3 2 0 -
6 +4 +2 +5 +5 +3 save against poison, Uncanny Alertness +2 3 3 1 -
7 +5 +2 +5 +5 Uncanny Initiative +4 3 3 2 0
8 +6 +2 +6 +6 +4 save against poison 3 3 3 1
9 +6 +3 +6 +6 Uncanny Alertness +3 3 3 3 2
10 +7 +3 +7 +7 +5 save against poison, Precise Strike 2d6 3 3 3 3
Sense Deadly Critical (ex): A Wary Warrior may choose to make a sense motive check in place of any save triggered by a critical hit (the effect causing the save must require a critical hit).
Uncanny Alertness (ex): A Wary Warrior of third level or higher makes listen checks without penalties while sleeping. Once every three levels, a Wary Warrior gains an additional +1 competence bonus to all spot and listen checks.
Spells: As Assassin, spell list will either be from the Assassin or the Paladin (TBD).